This is a series of posts between myself a guest female blogger where we will tackle a certain question or issue. These series of posts are set up to create dialogue between the genders and give balanced information opinions, ideas, and fun to the conversation. You can check out more from the series here.
This post I will be in discourse with Max from over at Max-Logic. She has a great blog site that talks about dating, relationships, and sex from a woman’s perspective but with an off the cuff tone.
So myself and Max will tackle the question:
Is Chivalry Dead or Just in a Coma?
Max-Logic
As a woman in a big city, every day I am confronted with evidence that men no longer feel compelled to give women any special consideration. Doors are routinely allowed to shut in my face. I am pushed and bumped out of lines at the bar. And a man giving up his seat to me on the streetcar is absolutely out of question.
All the same, chivalry isn’t something I give a lot of thought to on a daily basis. I don’t expect random men I encounter in my daily life to extend any courtesies to me. The world seems to no longer work that way and I think I’m okay with that.
Where chivalry comes into play for me is in my personal relationships. And while “must be chivalrous” appears nowhere on my list of must-haves in a partner, I admit that I do notice (and care) when a man’s behavior is something less than chivalrous. I may be an independent single woman but I still expect a man I’m being intimate with to open doors for me, stand when I get up from the table and help me on and off with my coat. I expect him to walk on the outside of the sidewalk and to see me home at the end of the evening. Even in a casual type of relationship I think less of a man who doesn’t offer me cab fare home after a night of thronxing.
Sadly I can count on half of one hand the number of men I’ve been involved with whose chivalry games were on point. It seems somewhere along the line someone gave men the message that this type of behavior is no longer required. If you ask the modern single man, he’ll tell you that independent women killed chivalry by robbing him of the desire to be chivalrous. He’ll tell you that there are far too many “independent” women out there who have the nerve to get offended when a man opens a door for her. Or to become enraged when a man slips up and doesn’t pull out her chair for her. Or who want to be domineering and controlling one minute and then expect to be treated like a delicate lily the next. To hear men tell it, these women have their heads spinning so much had no choice but to start reserving chivalrous behavior for their ultra-VIP customers only.
My immediate inclination was to agree with this but on closer inspection I’m not sure it holds water. I’m not sure that women have the power to kill a behavior in men unless they let us. Otherwise why wouldn’t we able to stop men from leaving the toilet seat up or vanishing without a trace? No I’m sorry but I don’t buy it. I think if chivalry is in fact dead (and not just laying somewhere gathering its strength while we shuffle around gender roles and figure out who is gonna do what) it’s because men started realizing that they could get by without it. They realized they could sit their happy asses down on public transit without offering their seats to a lady and no one would call them on it. They caught on that no woman is going to stop dating them because they don’t open doors for her. They realized that they could slam a woman for the first time and not call her the next day and still slam again. In short, men got lazy and women let them get away with it.
But back to the original question that my homie asked me. Is chivalry dead or is it in a coma? Is it an antiquated notion whose day has come and gone or a facet of traditional gender roles that needs to be reevaluated? I don’t know but I don’t think it really matters. What matters is that chivalry is scarcer than a 40-year-old virgin these days.
Chivalry used to be a unilateral display of good manners. Men didn’t extend it only to women they felt deserved it and women didn’t use it as a gauge of a man’s character. It was just the done thing. Now how chivalry is displayed and received will tell you something about the person you’re dealing with. So I leave you with a tip. Ladies, when a man does something chivalrous for you, smile and say thank you. Don’t think about the political implications of it. Take it as a testament to his respect for you, not as evidence that he thinks you’re incapable of taking care of yourself. And men, Andy Rutledge said “Opening the door for a lady is not optional, and will never go out of style”. Take that to heart. Being chivalrous is always a win. And it will make getting the drawers that much easier…who doesn’t want that?
From Ashy to Classy
Chivalry is it really in a coma or has the idea of chivalry evolved some? I have always thought when different issues arise in society. I like to step back and think about has the concept evolved from a way we perceived it to be in the past.
First off, lets define what chivalry is. Chivalry is the medieval system, principles, and customs of knighthood. The qualities idealized by knighthood, such as bravery, courtesy, honor, and gallantry toward women.
Basically the idea of chivalry is one attributed to knights and a medieval system. So, even the definition of chivalry needs some updating. I understand the context of a knight saving his fair maiden from a tower with a fire-breathing dragon guarding her. This is the mythical dream that many women and some men believes happens. Love, marriage, and relationships are far from being the knight and lady situation but more intricate.
I think within this question the idea of being chivalrous and a gentleman are synonymous. I am totally in favor of general behavior that is considered chivalrous or gentleman . From opening up the door for a woman to walking on the left side of the street when walking down the street to even helping a woman with their coat. All of those things I would describe as being chivalrous. The problem comes into the idea that many men’s and women’s definition of what is gentlemanly or chivalrous is skewed or unrealistic.
Some women have misconstrued a man trickin for being a gentleman while some men are just so lame or uncouth to understand simple nuisances of women. Then we have women who want independence and only want a man to be a gentleman or chivalrous only when it is convenient but, on the other hand we have men have not learned now to properly conduct themselves around a woman.
Women that say men aren’t as chivalrous per say I will agree with but at the same time I will also say certain things have evolved in our society to the point were certain things maybe not be expected as before in the past. For example, how is a man suppose to may every time you all go out when you both make around 40K a year. That isn’t fair by any means or notion. Some women love to have a dude take them out interested or not are they thinking about these dudes when they say men aren’t chivalrous are is it only the guys you are interested in that you want to lump in this “statistic”. Just because a man is doing “everything” that you may have decided is your “pre-designed” overblown expectations of what chivalry is.
Taking a woman to Ruth Chris’, giving you three bouquets of flowers, and rolling out the red carpet when I just met you is not being chivalrous its trickin plain and simple. The idea of “rolling out the red carpet” for woman to some men has been unappreciated. Some men have been jaded from the traditionalized aspect of chivalry because of the reaction they have gotten from women. How many times have you heard a women say:
“Yeah my sponsor took me out”
OR
“He is a suckah for helping me out and being there for me.”
From the male perspective chivalry lies somewhat in the lap of women and I will tell you why. Like I have said before Nonice runs the world and will make men do damn near anything to get it and have acceptance of it. Chivalry isn’t in a coma it just maybe more of the idea that the certain men YOU kick it aren’t chivalrous. With that being said if women want men to be more chivalrous and gentlemanly they need to make men more accountable for their actions and how they treat them. The men will follow believe me.
Men also have their cross 
to bear in this situation of unchivalrous nature. Men definitely need to buck up and understand that just because one chick was on some wack stuff doesn’t mean that everyone is the same. This goes along with the same problem with women treating every man like they were the dude that broke their heart in ’99. Men definitely have loss some of their manners and it is some women’s right to take us to task on it. I understand that Snoop and Dr. Dre made the song “B**** Aint Sh** But Hoes and Tricks” but as men we have to have more of the fortitude to understand that every woman doesn’t fall into this category. Men have to realized also that you have to not let the whole Jarrod Effect take over your life and being able to balance your alpha maleness with beta maleness. You can’t just be Captain Save a Ho o any woman then get made because of the results of not doing your due diligence to see what type of woman she was.
The whole debate on chivalry is a constant circle because men will say that women aren’t showing their worthiness to be chivalrous to while women will say that men aren’t being chivalrous enough. At the end of the ball really lies in both sides of the court. I will leave you with these questions:
Women: Are you worthy of being chivalrous to?
Men: Are you being chivalrous enough to warrant the attention of a quality woman?
I just say treat someone like you would really wanted to be treated…
Cool perspective from the chick max but I gotta agree with Dig! Some of these women wouldn’t know a real chivalerous dude if he hit them with his sword!
Chivalry is dead, and women killed it. You don’t want that anyways. You want Lil’ Wayne clones. You can’t tell me that you want good men while being hyped up that a dude about a dude who goes out of his way to disrespect women in damn near all of his songs got out of jail. So yeah, niggas aint shit, but that’s the way you like them. The good men exited stage right a while ago. We will be chillin with the white girl over in the corner…
Damn you had to bring the white girls into this huh?…lol
I take offense to your comment!! Why do white girls seem to be able to have the pass to be chivalry but black women don’t We all don’t like Lil wayne clones and every white women doesn’t like the distinguished gentleman( you seen Jersey Shore?) I just take exception to black men making indebt statements such as yours.
Well it’s like this: Black women set the standard for the type of men that get coochie. Period. If the majority of black women said that they are only fucking dudes hat live in refrigerator boxes, then niggas would behind department stores stealing boxes all damn day. YOU, black women as a culture and majority decided the type of men you wanted were like lil’ wayne, that’s the men that you yourselves elevated beyond mindless entertainment into a culture icon, a standard for today’s generation. Jersey Shore stays just that, on the shore. You don’t see millions of people trying to emulate that because its on TV, just the stupid ones. Black people don’t see the line between entertainment and reality, and see it as one and the same. Period.
I bet you know who Lil Wayne is and Drake is, but do you know who Dr. Neil deGrasse Tyson is? I thought not. Why? because he’s not the standard. Niggas are what you want, and they are what you shall recieve. You like to keep the good men as “friends” and your emotional support, your intellectual whores, then get mad when they run off with an Asian chick that appreciates a big dick and a job.
Not saying you all like them, but there is more good men then there are good women, and the single mother statistics don’t lie.
it’s in a coma. most men don’t know what chivalry is, most women don’t expect or require it. but all women deserve & are worthy of chivalry. and all men should demostrate it & understand it’s importance. it’s important because it’s part of what we were created for. to take care/protect/be considerate of one another. you’re opening the door because it’s the gracious thing to do. you’re pulling the car around because it’s the considerate thing to do. chivalry works both ways. women take care of us, they do things for us, things that we look to them and make us feel like men, wanted, or appreciated.
I agree with both sides, it’s lost..but it’s not dead.
Seems we need a little bit more of feminine energy in this post…
I am gonna have to agree with Max!! Men need to step their game up a lot but like Diggame said we also have to make men more accountable and be the person we want to have chivalry done for.
Great post guys look forward to more
@ Sincere It seems you have some very deep rooted issues with black women!
You are talking about single moms well who are making this women single mothers. You cannot put all this blame on black women.
How many women are really running after Lil Wayne as you suggest? Do you have any real evidence to back this up?I know black women are becoming more educated than blackmen but you put the whole problem in the bush of black women?? Really??
Do not insult my intelligence. You do not know who I know about.
There are great black women around you why don’t you see them, honor them and cherish them!
Education does not equal common sense. Plain and simple. Just because you have a Ph. D. doesn’t mean you know a good man when you see one. Period. I do cherish the very very few I see. so that makes about…6. out of about 18 million. Kinda sad really. Since Lil Wayne is selling ou shows and so is Gucci Mane, I would gander enough women are running up on him.
I don’t insult your intelligence, your fellow black women have that one covered.
You sound so ridiculous in your comments! I am glad we have sensible and anaylitical men like Dig! I don’t always agree with your posts but I can’t hate at your rationale.
Now you Mr. Sincere have no amount of sincerity or intelligence to you just banter
I don’t believe that chivalry is dead, cause there are plenty women, my daughter and mom included, that I exercise a good amount of custom towards. In fact, I become somewhat pissed when others don’t offer the same.
Then I realize that the value I place upon these woman aren’t the same as the value that others place towards ‘em, so I can do nothing but respect it. Which leads me to believe that it’s more about the woman and man, than it is about women and men, in general.
If that makes sense.
People are equipped with so many preconceived notions nowadays, for whatever reasons, that it’s pretty much a miracle if two people speak and acknowledge one another in passing, let alone show respect based on the strength of showing respect.
So, no, I hardly believe that chivalry dead. What I do believe is the vaule itself has diminished, significantly.
Great post Max and DFri. I must say I think both men and women play a great role in the deadness of chivalry. Men assume they’re getting played and women we don’t expect it therefore we don’t require it. We have to be accountable for what we want out of life and in our relationships.
Omg on how ignorant you sound Sincere. You’re right an education does not equal common sense but apparently you lack both. Throwing out a name makes you feel better than someone who knows Lil Wayne or Drake? Check your stats women aren’t the only ones in attendance. Men show up too and support them by buying their music. Don’t get me wrong there are far more important issues and people in the world than rap stars and ball players. But some things like courtesy can’t be taught by reading a book or knowing history. It comes from how you’re raised. We could easily say Chivalry is dead cause all black men chase the women with fat asses. Do you know Nicki Minaj? I’m sure you do. The point is BLACK WOMEN didn’t decide the type of man we wanted were like Lil Wayne. Fact cause I sure didn’t. Hell one of his baby mamas and I assume fan is Asian. Women in general accept and decide what they want out of men. Don’t categorize all Black women because of the sluts and ignorant ones you’ve dealt with. Cause I definitely don’t consider all men dogs. Word of advice you attract what you are. Maybe that’s why you think of us the way you do. More good black men than women based on who’s statistics? I come from a long line of great Black women and I guarantee their husbands aren’t shit like lil Wayne. Change your surroundings and work on the biased personality and you to may be blessed to find that Black woman. Until then enjoy ur whites. Whoredom comes in all races, male and female.
Thank you to all the black women that replied with such ignorance and emotion, therefore PROVING my point that you cannot construct an argument or position logically without attacking the other side directly. I never made any direct reference to any of you as people, yet you felt the need to attack me directly. Emotional, irrational, reaction. Not once did you actually debate any of the points a actually brought up. THIS is how I know you would end up with a nigga over a good man. You have just participated in a social experiment and failed wonderfully.
Logic would dictate hat one could see the sarcasm from the actual point I was making, but satire isn’t a popular art form in black culture. Seeing the forest for the trees is a skill, to which black women clearly lack. You couldn’t even tell when you “mature, responsible, clearly non-nigga dating” black women were being purposefully goaded into making an emotional reaction, just like niggas play on that said feature to get you butt naked, using your emotions against you.
So thank you ladies for proving my point. I have won, once again. No need to thank me for this educational lesson, this one was for free, my community service for this month. Never argue with a guy whose IQ is north of 140′s.
Good day.
I think for the dumb dumbs on here I have to break this down as simple as possible.
Black woman = woman
emotions = rope
tree = nigga
now if a woman goes and hangs herself from a tree, do we blame the tree, the rope, or the woman? Niggas are like trees, they are going to do what they do, and be where they are at. Niggas make the fact that they are niggas pretty damn obvious. No amount of money or clothes or fame can cover it up. So a woman attaching her said emotions (rope) to a nigga (tree), and choking off her logical thoughts with her emotions (rope), only leads to one thing, her hanging herself.
It’s a lot of damn trees in the world.
Though I agree with your assessment. Every person should be judged individually and not lumped into a stereotype.
Damn yall going in on this post! I feel my man Sincere but he definitely going to personal on the ladies I gotta say…
Although, this subject was introduced yesterday. I feel compelled to respond. I believe chivalry is not dead that a man will display this action to women or a woman that they respect. But, from my experience there are too many men nowadays assume that most women they meet are all the same. There are still some real ladies out there who still like the act of chilvary. Men should read what type of womam they are dating or seeing. If he is not with the chivalry action, then he should be truthful and date/see woman that agree with him.
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